To Ordain or Not
May 7, 2008
I talked with a friend the other day. He wanted my advice about an issue that dealt with ordination and women. Here’s the scenario, which he gave me permission to talk about if I didn’t use his name. He will be reading and enjoying our dialog, so I hope I have understood it correctly.
My friend is a Baptist denominational guy, and a Korean church under his leadership called him and asked him to participate in the ordination of a female. This lady had been on staff of this Korean church but is being led to a position, not as senior pastor, at a church in Korea. In Korean culture, ordination is very necessary. The Korean culture has a great emphasis on following authority, they are very communal in that way, so they wanted my friend to participate because of his position.
My friend has a conviction about ordination. He only believes in ordaining pastors, and those need to be men. He does not believe in ordaining deacons. He understands that others do not have those same convictions and that the Bible is not clear on this practice. He doesn’t think others who might ordain women are necessarily liberal, heretical, or not Christians. This is a personal conviction.
His dilemma is that he doesn’t feel he can participate in that ordination, but since this is a local church issue, and the Baptist Faith & Message doesn’t speak to it, he will not stand in the way. He would not want to hurt this incredibly gifted woman, or the relationship he has with the church.
So the question is, How does he communicate this to the church in a way that respects the church’s culture and the church in Korea’s culture while having a conviction, albeit only a personal conviction, against the practice of ordaining women?
There are several missional issues here I think. One in particular is how we deal with our convictions across culture, especially on secondary and tertiary issues. My friend has a conviction, but the culture in Korea requires ordination. How does he honor their culture while staying true to a conviction?
Asian cultures work hard to allow people to “Save Face”, to not make people look foolish and allow them to maintain their honor in front of people. Can he do that in this situation? If so, How?
In a country that is becoming more and more multi-cultural, how do we honor the theology of a culture that has been transplanted here from another country when our western culture might find their theology different from ours on secondary issues?
Now this might be an even bigger question, and this one is all David: Would you ordain a woman staff person? I raise this question because legally, they might need to be ordained to get the same legal benefits as their male counterparts. Do we keep, say a female children’s minister, from having access to the same legal benefits as the male youth pastor? Can we do that and not be violating our conservative theology?
I think that we have to look at the person and what we are “blessing” them to do. What is ordination, anyway? Is it a biblical concept? If we are blessing a person, male or female, to participate in leading a certain ministry, is this not the same concept as ordination? Doesn’t a church do this when they call a female children’s director? Aren’t they blessing her to do the work of ministry that they have called her to? Aren’t they giving her a certain level of authority to lead within the sphere that they have placed her in? Sometimes, we miss the boat because we are getting caught up in semantics. We ordain women all the time. We just do it unofficially. But, is there an official act of ordination that we are called to participate in biblically? Does Acts 13 speak of this when Paul and Barnabas were “set apart” for a certain work? If so, then don’t we do this with women all the time anyway.
It is amazing how difficult all this becomes when we bring in our man made traditions and try and make them fit the Biblical commands. None of it makes much sense.
I may be the only one of the TM group who has the unique perspective of hosting a Korean church in our church. (The friend to whom David refers is not me, btw.) I can honestly say that there are several cultural rough spots with which we deal on a regular basis. The most obvious is the food they cook for lunch every week. They meet after us and they start cooking lunch after we start our worship time. When we come out we are greeted with the most pungent odor of Kim Chi (sp?), which is rotten cabbage. Not great for visitors and the regulars don’t like it either. So this is a similar problem: How do you say something and not offend them? They are very easily offended if you don’t give them the ability to “save face,” but how do you tell them in such a way they are not offended?
Well, we’ve focused on increasing our relationship and have continued to bide our time on this issue… which is my first reaction.
If your friend has the ability to NOT confront the issue, since it is not worthy of breaking fellowship, that’s the easiest solution. I know, it sounds like a cowards’ way out, but honestly, this is a tertiary issue. If it’s not worth parting ways, do we really desire to take action that leads us toward parting ways?
I would simply say that I am not able to make it to the service but tell them that I will pray for them and for the lady involved. There is no requirement to tell why you can’t be there. Now, if they think you are taking them lightly that would also offend, but you could simply say that something unavoidable is keeping you from the gathering.
Unless you have someone, a leader, in the congregation who has come to understand American culture very well. IF they have such a leader, then you may be able to communicate that you have a difference, but that you do not consider them to be “wrong” in a judgmental way. Someone who understands American culture will understand that we are different, but will hopefully be able to communicate well enough to understand that he isn’t judging them, but simply doesn’t see it the same way.
Any way you work it, it is a fine line.
Of course, this begs the question: “Am I right?”
Your friend really has to examine the question of if he is right about ordination and is he really on the “right” side of the issue.
I was ordained in 1988, so I am a part of what we do here, but…
What we do doesn’t really stand up to the scrutiny of Scripture. There was not a Pastor/Elder/Overseer “status” that people transfered from church to church, but people were called to positions of leadership in a local congregation. Paul was commissioned, in a sense, to be sent out, but that was not a cultural elevation like what we have. It was to a specific task.
I think we would do better without “ordained” ministers. It has created some expectations that aren’t healthy and tax breaks as well as burdens with which ministers must deal. I don’t know about everyone else’s church, but I’ve never been in a church that paid the employer’s part of my Social Security tax, so I pay 15.3% self employment tax, just to start, plus income tax. Yes, I get to double dip on my mortgage, but this is still a pretty significant burden. Anyway… That’s a rabbit I’ll quit chasing.
But that does answer your question, sort of, David. I’d prefer to do away with the status of “ordained minister.”
Since that isn’t a plausible reality, though, I suppose I have skirted the question…
I’ll think about it.
I’m not sure I can contribute a whole lot further to the particular context of this situation. Time would probably not allow for what I’m going to ask, but I’ll ask it anyway: what would the process be in encouraging the Korean church to evaluate the entire “ordination” process? Can they recognize authority apart from an “official” ordination?
I think this is an issue for churches in general, not just Korean churches. There is a quote from David Watson’s book “I Believe In The Church” where he says (paraphrasing), We need to quit asking when we will start ordaining women and begin asking when will we stop ordaining men. Ultimately we (Americans) face the same question of authority and need to think it through, but I suspect that both we (Americans) and they (Koreans) could find a way to answer those questions.
I’m totally ignorant of Korean culture and I have no idea how they would go about asking those questions in a respectful way. I would suspect, though, that they still believe in the authority of Scripture over their cultural norms (as we should ours as well), so maybe asking them what Scriptural basis they see for ordination might be a start.
Of course, as I say, there won’t be time to work through this process before this person has to let them know his decision one way or another. Maybe Art’s suggestions are good.
If it were me, I think I would participate in the service in some way, but mainly because I could do it without my conscience being offended and because I may be in a different place than he is in regards to this issue. If I couldn’t do it without offending my conscience then I’d probably do what Art has suggested.
One thing you noted, David, is that he does not believe this is a primary matter, nor that they are necessarily being heretical or liberal, nor even that their practice is necessarily unbiblical. If that is true then would the law of love triumph over personal conviction? I want to be clear that I’m not saying that if he chooses not to participate that he is being unloving. Maybe it would be the most loving thing for him to do in this context. But if we’re talking about areas of uncertainty then I’m simply asking if it might be wise to consider whether or not the loving thing to do would be to affirm them in affirming this woman?
Just my rambling thoughts.
One more thing I just thought of. Maybe a good question for this person to ask (in light of his overall views on ordination) would be: what would he do if this were an American church asking him to participate in the ordination service of a male deacon and he had a strong sense that if he said “no” that the church would be offended? Would anything change?
Sorry, all I seem to have are more questions and no answers.
Paul,
I think the implications of “minister x” questioning their procedures would be very offensive to them. It’s part of Korean Christian culture, so it is core to them. I don’t know this to be true, but I am pretty sure that it is true.
I have a few more thoughts about Ordination, the way we practice it.
When I was ordained, I was a college student and part time Youth Minister (Full Time in the Summer!) at a church in the Houston area. I served there for over a year and they ordained me at the end of my second summer there. I moved churches in January and haven’t been back since, though I’ve talked to a few from there from time to time. My ordination status has implications for me legally (ability to marry people, taxes, etc.) and culturally (churches look at that on my resume when considering whether or not to hire me) but it is governed by a church that I have not seen or been in real contact with in almost 20 years. They have no idea how I’m doing ow whether I am behaving in a way that deserves to maintain the status I now have.
I could actually be fired from my current church for moral failure (not facing that - just hypothetical) and still have the ability to marry people because that church ordained me - unless they found out about the issue, voted to revoke the ordination, contacted the authorities and proved to them that they had the right to do that and asked the court to expunge my ability to marry people in this state.
I could set up a wedding chapel and make a living in a way that is totally unrelated to what and why that church did what it did 20 years ago - totally unrelated to ministry, but still possessing the legal status to do things based on a group of people no longer in touch with me.
But I’ll go you one even better.
I don’t have to even know anyone to receive this legal benefit, and in some circles, even the cultural benefit.
At “God’s Living Word Ministry’s” website, I can become ordained online (or start a 501(c)(3) organization for $750 with the promise to never pay taxes again) or even become a Doctor of Divinity (with the promise that the degree will open doors for me).
The deluxe ordination package is my favorite. For $75…
You really can’t find any of this in Scripture, so what we do is cultural. Is this not, to some degree, the elevation of our culture over their culture?