I think the implications of “minister x” questioning their procedures would be very offensive to them. It’s part of Korean Christian culture, so it is core to them. I don’t know this to be true, but I am pretty sure that it is true.

I have a few more thoughts about Ordination, the way we practice it.

When I was ordained, I was a college student and part time Youth Minister (Full Time in the Summer!) at a church in the Houston area. I served there for over a year and they ordained me at the end of my second summer there. I moved churches in January and haven’t been back since, though I’ve talked to a few from there from time to time. My ordination status has implications for me legally (ability to marry people, taxes, etc.) and culturally (churches look at that on my resume when considering whether or not to hire me) but it is governed by a church that I have not seen or been in real contact with in almost 20 years. They have no idea how I’m doing ow whether I am behaving in a way that deserves to maintain the status I now have.

I could actually be fired from my current church for moral failure (not facing that - just hypothetical) and still have the ability to marry people because that church ordained me - unless they found out about the issue, voted to revoke the ordination, contacted the authorities and proved to them that they had the right to do that and asked the court to expunge my ability to marry people in this state.

I could set up a wedding chapel and make a living in a way that is totally unrelated to what and why that church did what it did 20 years ago - totally unrelated to ministry, but still possessing the legal status to do things based on a group of people no longer in touch with me.

But I’ll go you one even better.

I don’t have to even know anyone to receive this legal benefit, and in some circles, even the cultural benefit.

At “God’s Living Word Ministry’s” website, I can become ordained online (or start a 501(c)(3) organization for $750 with the promise to never pay taxes again) or even become a Doctor of Divinity (with the promise that the degree will open doors for me).

The deluxe ordination package is my favorite. For $75…

Clergy Package # 3
Certificate of Ordination With Gold Seal
Title Certificate With Gold Seal( your title on the form)
Pocket Ordination Card (Laminated in plastic)
Clergy Placard (Car Dashboard Sign Laminated in Plastic)
Marriage Certificates (3)
Baptism Certificates (3)
Wedding Renewal Certificates (3)
Marriage Laws In Your State
Religious Rights
Outline For Your First Sermon
Ceremonies for Marriage / Baptism / Funerals
Clergy Package #3…………………………………………..$75.00

You really can’t find any of this in Scripture, so what we do is cultural. Is this not, to some degree, the elevation of our culture over their culture?

Sorry, all I seem to have are more questions and no answers.

I think this is an issue for churches in general, not just Korean churches. There is a quote from David Watson’s book “I Believe In The Church” where he says (paraphrasing), We need to quit asking when we will start ordaining women and begin asking when will we stop ordaining men. Ultimately we (Americans) face the same question of authority and need to think it through, but I suspect that both we (Americans) and they (Koreans) could find a way to answer those questions.

I’m totally ignorant of Korean culture and I have no idea how they would go about asking those questions in a respectful way. I would suspect, though, that they still believe in the authority of Scripture over their cultural norms (as we should ours as well), so maybe asking them what Scriptural basis they see for ordination might be a start.

Of course, as I say, there won’t be time to work through this process before this person has to let them know his decision one way or another. Maybe Art’s suggestions are good.

If it were me, I think I would participate in the service in some way, but mainly because I could do it without my conscience being offended and because I may be in a different place than he is in regards to this issue. If I couldn’t do it without offending my conscience then I’d probably do what Art has suggested.

One thing you noted, David, is that he does not believe this is a primary matter, nor that they are necessarily being heretical or liberal, nor even that their practice is necessarily unbiblical. If that is true then would the law of love triumph over personal conviction? I want to be clear that I’m not saying that if he chooses not to participate that he is being unloving. Maybe it would be the most loving thing for him to do in this context. But if we’re talking about areas of uncertainty then I’m simply asking if it might be wise to consider whether or not the loving thing to do would be to affirm them in affirming this woman?

Just my rambling thoughts.

Well, we’ve focused on increasing our relationship and have continued to bide our time on this issue… which is my first reaction.

If your friend has the ability to NOT confront the issue, since it is not worthy of breaking fellowship, that’s the easiest solution. I know, it sounds like a cowards’ way out, but honestly, this is a tertiary issue. If it’s not worth parting ways, do we really desire to take action that leads us toward parting ways?

I would simply say that I am not able to make it to the service but tell them that I will pray for them and for the lady involved. There is no requirement to tell why you can’t be there. Now, if they think you are taking them lightly that would also offend, but you could simply say that something unavoidable is keeping you from the gathering.

Unless you have someone, a leader, in the congregation who has come to understand American culture very well. IF they have such a leader, then you may be able to communicate that you have a difference, but that you do not consider them to be “wrong” in a judgmental way. Someone who understands American culture will understand that we are different, but will hopefully be able to communicate well enough to understand that he isn’t judging them, but simply doesn’t see it the same way.

Any way you work it, it is a fine line.

Of course, this begs the question: “Am I right?”

Your friend really has to examine the question of if he is right about ordination and is he really on the “right” side of the issue.

I was ordained in 1988, so I am a part of what we do here, but…

What we do doesn’t really stand up to the scrutiny of Scripture. There was not a Pastor/Elder/Overseer “status” that people transfered from church to church, but people were called to positions of leadership in a local congregation. Paul was commissioned, in a sense, to be sent out, but that was not a cultural elevation like what we have. It was to a specific task.

I think we would do better without “ordained” ministers. It has created some expectations that aren’t healthy and tax breaks as well as burdens with which ministers must deal. I don’t know about everyone else’s church, but I’ve never been in a church that paid the employer’s part of my Social Security tax, so I pay 15.3% self employment tax, just to start, plus income tax. Yes, I get to double dip on my mortgage, but this is still a pretty significant burden. Anyway… That’s a rabbit I’ll quit chasing.

But that does answer your question, sort of, David. I’d prefer to do away with the status of “ordained minister.”

Since that isn’t a plausible reality, though, I suppose I have skirted the question…

I’ll think about it.

It is amazing how difficult all this becomes when we bring in our man made traditions and try and make them fit the Biblical commands. None of it makes much sense.

Anyway, thanks for posting this. If we see the entire purpose of the church through a missional lens, it sure does change things. It changes our theology, our worship, our preaching, and our prayer. Our piety becomes less individualistic and more community oriented and outward focused. We can no longer just sit by while injustice happens around us, but we become involved in bringing redemption to the world around us. This type of perspective changes everything.

Lord, let us be changed.